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#201577 - 06/24/08 09:37 PM

Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

NEFARIOUS

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Registered: 12/09/01

Posts: 731

I was reading more about Moore and his involvement with Liefeld's Awesome/Maximum Comics and came across and interview where Liefeld was taking shots at him.

Why did Moore leave and what made Liefeld trash talk about him?

I tried looking for interviews with Moore about his Awesome Comics tenure but couldn't find anything.

I just found out that he also wrote some issues of Glory, who I didn't know is supposed to be a thinly disguised Wonder Woman. And since his Supreme is considered one of the best Superman stories out there, it's too bad that he didn't get to write more stories about Supreme, Glory and Professor Night and Twilight. Alot of us are unhappy with DC's current approach with their classic characters and if Moore was still on these titles, they could have been great alternatives to the product Didio is pushing.

#201578 - 06/24/08 10:33 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

necrotechno

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Registered: 12/02/03

Posts: 3058

The first issue of Moore's take on Youngblood was an excellent read. The second issue came out years later as the first issue of "Awesome Presents" or something (had one of those Alex Ross pencil sketch Supreme/Suprema re-designs for a cover). The last five or six pages weren't even finished, some of the worst art I've ever seen in any comic. Worth finding just to see the trainwreck as it happens.

#201579 - 06/24/08 11:23 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Peter Urkowitz

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Loc: Salem, MA, USA

I can't recall the exact details, but Liefeld's company went out of business for the eighth or ninth time. Moore probably would have kept on writing for him if there had been somebody to cut the checks, but there wasn't. At least in this case, I don't think too much work was done without being paid for (maybe Rick Veitch can correct me).

Without missing a beat, Moore came up with the ABC line of comics and sold them to Jim Lee's Wildstorm, so that he and his artistic collaborators would still have paying work. Of course, then Lee turned around and sold Wildstorm to DC.

Liefeld talks trash because he's a talentless hack riding on the coattails of his betters. He stopped paying his creators, so they stopped working for him. I think some original art was never returned. And the creators were never paid for the later Checker Books reprints. So Liefeld has gotten more than his fair share out of the deal.

#201580 - 06/25/08 01:41 AM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

steel: A Long Departed Hero

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Moore had plots for a New Gods riff and a battle between the Supremacy and Daxia. Would have been cool, but oh, well. We got some good stuff from the guy.

#201581 - 06/25/08 01:56 AM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

BATFAN

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Registered: 10/02/03

Posts: 2559

Nefarious, is this the same interview where Liefeld said Moore was only in it for the money?

#201582 - 06/25/08 05:52 AM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Rick Veitch

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Registered: 11/23/98

Posts: 3531

Loc: Vermont, USA

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Urkowitz:

Peter's got it right. We all loved doing SUPREME, but working for Rob was a joke.

Alan had two more issues planned (and maybe one written) of the second year which Checker published unfinished as "The Return". From there Alan had planned a third year where SUPREME travels into the Supremium meteor that gave him his powers.

#201583 - 06/25/08 01:07 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

steel: A Long Departed Hero

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I'd love to see that. Please finish this for us, Mr. Veitch.

#201584 - 06/25/08 02:40 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Matthewwave

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Registered: 06/04/00

Posts: 4993

Loc: Seattle, WA USA

"Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?"

I hear it was because he got a cramp in his hand.

Matthew

#201585 - 06/25/08 05:45 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

NEFARIOUS

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Registered: 12/09/01

Posts: 731

Quote:

Originally posted by BATFAN:

Nefarious, is this the same interview where Liefeld said Moore was only in it for the money?

Yeah.

I read that Alan Moore said (in an interview I'm guessing) that Rob Liefeld was a horrible artists, etc etc. Then I read somewhere that Alan Moore was upset because Liefeld didn't draw the Judgment Day series according to the script.

Even though the part about dropping acid and talking to Shakespere was funny, I find Liefeld, from what he said, to be very immature. He's surprised that Alan Moore writes comics and expects to get paid? He also mentioned how he COULD sue Moore for ABC being too similar to his Awesome Comics characters, when his own characters are just copies of DC's. Very ridiculous accusations, especially considering the Agent America/Captain America lawsuit.

#201586 - 06/25/08 05:52 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

NEFARIOUS

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Posts: 731

Rick Veitch,

The flashback sequences/issues that you did in Supreme were amazing. I don't know how you could accuratley capture the styles of those era's so well. I wish those Advantage/Actual Comics were real issues available to read.

#201587 - 06/25/08 06:14 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

ChrisW

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Posts: 10034

Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska USA

I'll echo that too, from Swan/Klein, to Swan/Anderson, to Kirby to all the other takes on different artists, those were amazing.

Quote:

Originally posted by steel: A Long Departed Hero:

Moore had plots for a New Gods riff and a battle between the Supremacy and Daxia. Would have been cool, but oh, well. We got some good stuff from the guy.

Oh my god, I'd never considered that, but it makes perfect sense, and explains the Kirby-tribute issue that, although I loved it, always left me scratching my head every time I re-read it with a 'why here, why now?' expression.

Damn you, Rob Liefeld, for cheating us of Moore and Veitch's take on the New Gods!!!

#201588 - 06/25/08 09:41 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

BATFAN

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Registered: 10/02/03

Posts: 2559

Quote:

Originally posted by NEFARIOUS:

Quote:

Originally posted by BATFAN:

Nefarious, is this the same interview where Liefeld said Moore was only in it for the money?

Yeah.

Correct me if im wrong, but Rob didnt draw any of Alan's scripts, right? i seem to recall reading somewhere that Rob passed on drawing on any of those scripts because they were too complicated for him so he passed on or hired other artists to do them instead.

Talk about a wasted opportunity to collaborate directly with a living legend.

#201589 - 06/25/08 09:50 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Joe Lee

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Registered: 06/22/01

Posts: 12277

Quote:

Originally posted by ChrisW:

Damn you, Rob Liefeld, for cheating us of Moore and Veitch's take on the New Gods!!!

I just makes your heart ache doesn't it.

#201590 - 06/25/08 09:55 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

ChrisW

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Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska USA

Liefeld is at least credited with some pages in a few issues, and some of them look damned ugly so it's only reasonable to assume he did "technically" collaborate with Moore.

I have no doubt that if Liefeld had paid Moore to write something that would work within Liefeld's limitations, the result would have been wonderful.

Alas, even that idea apparently was completely beyond someone who had Moore and Veitch doing a ton of "awesome" work, and still ripped them off. It just makes you want to crack Liefeld over the head with a sledgehammer, and not for all the other reasons, but you! have! these! guys! doing! work! and! you! fuck! it! up! what! the! hell! is! wrong! with! you???????????

How many here, if they had Liefeld's X-Force/Youngblood/Image bankroll, and creators of that calibre willing to work, would "shaft" them? As opposed to breaking out the checkbook, giving them whatever they wanted, just so they keep producing many many wonderful pages.

[Sidenote, Rick, I finally have a Dr. Blasphemy t-shirt, I'm so all a-tingle that I haven't even put it on yet. I'm waiting for a special occasion.]

#201591 - 06/25/08 10:44 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Joe Lee

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Registered: 06/22/01

Posts: 12277

So why is Liefeld such a dick?

#201592 - 06/26/08 09:04 AM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

THE Anti-Hunter

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Loc: oceanside,Ca

Quote:

Originally posted by Joe Lee:

So why is Liefeld such a dick?

Because the balls rolled away.

#201593 - 06/26/08 01:39 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

NEFARIOUS

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Registered: 12/09/01

Posts: 731

Quote:

Originally posted by ChrisW:

It just makes you want to crack Liefeld over the head with a sledgehammer, and not for all the other reasons, but you! have! these! guys! doing! work! and! you! fuck! it! up! what! the! hell! is! wrong! with! you???????????

Really. He should've done whatever he could to pay them what they were owed.

They turned crappy, generic, imitation 90s comic characters into something special

#201594 - 06/26/08 04:32 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

steel: A Long Departed Hero

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Posts: 4322

Loc: The MBA (Mysterious Blue Area)...

QUOTE]Originally posted by ChrisW:

Liefeld is at least credited with some pages in a few issues, and some of them look damned ugly so it's only reasonable to assume he did "technically" collaborate with Moore.

I have no doubt that if Liefeld had paid Moore to write something that would work within Liefeld's limitations, the result would have been wonderful.

[Sidenote, Rick, I finally have a Dr. Blasphemy t-shirt, I'm so all a-tingle that I haven't even put it on yet. I'm waiting for a special occasion.] [/QUOTE]

Sometimes, the money just isn't there. Do you remember how many units this title was moving? He published two years of these stories. What did you do?

As Theodore Roosevelt once said,

“It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat.”

#201595 - 06/26/08 06:05 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

NEFARIOUS

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Registered: 12/09/01

Posts: 731

I like your quote but this is a place to discuss, critique, complain, or give praise.

Plus, how does that quote apply to Rob Liefeld's previous employee's not getting paid? Liefeld himself sounds ignorant when saying that Alan Moore is only in it for the money.

Silly Alan Moore, expecting to get paid for working!

Top

#201596 - 06/26/08 08:41 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Joe Lee

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Registered: 06/22/01

Posts: 12277

Quote:

Originally posted by steel: A Long Departed Hero:

Sometimes, the money just isn't there. Do you remember how many units this title was moving? He published two years of these stories. What did you do?

So what are the qualifications needed to criticize Rob Liefeld?

"Sometimes, the money just isn't there?" I'm just guessing here but I'm sure that Liefeld didn't allow Checker to print the Supreme TPBs for free. If what Peter said is true, "the creators were never paid for the later Checker Books reprints," then what exactly is your fairness issue with criticizing Liefeld on this point?

And Harry S. Truman said, "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen."

#201597 - 06/26/08 08:41 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

necrotechno

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Registered: 12/02/03

Posts: 3058

After Moore's failed attempt at self-publishing, he has said in many interviews that he's willing to work for whoever's paying. I don't think that's entirely true — DC proper could likely never hire him again; and he's said he doesn't care about the American Marvel Comics, that they don't have any "classic" characters. But it certainly explains things like that Deathblow mini-series.

#201598 - 06/27/08 05:27 AM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

jackdaw

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Registered: 07/26/05

Posts: 514

At fist I thought how could unused material be used if Rob Liefield owned Supreme?

Then I flicked through the trades I bought recently (but not read yet) and an idea formed.

Just change the names of the characters... say use names like Optimus, Doreen Davis, etc... make a few minimal changes to costume design and hair color. Then work up the unpublished material and issue it.

What could Rob do? Any fair minded court would laugh at any claims he made about Optimus being a Supreme clone... as Supreme himself appears to be a copy of another well known character.(The weakness in the plan might be its reliance on a fair minded court.)

#201599 - 06/27/08 06:20 AM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Rick Veitch

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Registered: 11/23/98

Posts: 3531

Loc: Vermont, USA

To be fair to Leifeld, the whole comics business was going up in chunks when Awesome finally collapsed.

But we creators had been promised a royalty deal on the collections. Whatever Leifeld's deal was with Checker, we were cut out. I was in touch with Checker after they picked up the rights and offered to talk with Alan about finishing the second book. They instead chose to rush into print with an unfinished story and horrible reproduction.

Instead of paying industry standard royalties to creators, Checker chose to use the substantial profits of the two Supreme collections to build their imprint.

Any of you folks who dig the retro stuff should check out my blog at http://www.rickveitch.com . I've been running a bunch of character designs Alan and I did for the Awesome universe back in the day.

#201600 - 06/27/08 07:08 AM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Eel O'Brian

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Posts: 3080

Loc: North Kackalackee

So, I shouldn't feel bad if I download the Supreme comics instead of buying the collections, then? Maybe I'll do that (if I can ever find them), and send you guys some money through Paypal instead.

#201601 - 06/27/08 08:58 AM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Joe Lee

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Registered: 06/22/01

Posts: 12277

Quote:

Originally posted by Rick Veitch:

To be fair to Leifeld, the whole comics business was going up in chunks when Awesome finally collapsed.

Did Awesome go bankrupt or just go out of business?

I don't know, I just don't see how it's UNFAIR criticism to say you should pay people what you owe them. If you guys were promised royalties. If Checker paid Liefeld for the two trades. Where were the royalties for you guys? If he couldn't pay or didn't receive any money there should at least have been some explanation to you guys of why. Even if the trades only made a dollar, you guys deserved a portion of that unless there was some prior agreement that restricted the payments.

Was the promise of royalties in writing? Hell, it shouldn't matter. A man's word should be all that matters. He shouldn't have taken any money, unless you guys were taken care of first, you pay the people first then the company. If you make a promise as a business, you honor that promise.

#201602 - 06/29/08 10:31 AM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Rick Veitch

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Registered: 11/23/98

Posts: 3531

Loc: Vermont, USA

Eel, the best way to get the SUPREME stuff is seek out the original issues in the quarter bins. Repro is great and you could probably put together a complete set for less than a Checker trade. Don't worry abourt Alan and I-- we'll be fine. We did the material because we loved it and want people to enjoy it even if Leifeld's a dick.

Joe, the criticism is fair. Every chance I get I let people know what really happened.

#201603 - 06/29/08 10:35 AM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Rick Veitch

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Registered: 11/23/98

Posts: 3531

Loc: Vermont, USA

All you retro-heads should be aware that I've donated two pages of original SUPREME art to Diamond's upcoming charity auction.

I've just posted the firt page on my blog: http://www.rickveitch.com/2008/06/29/supreme-original-art-auction/

#201604 - 06/29/08 12:49 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Peter Urkowitz

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Posts: 3231

Loc: Salem, MA, USA

Great Supreme page there, Rick! It should fetch a hefty price.

One possible typo, though. In your commentary, you note that "JUDY JORDAN gives the evil BAXTER FRONT a kick to the family jewels." While I know that the blurring of the Judys and the Dianas is part of the joke in SUPREME, isn't it Diana administering the kick on that page?

#201605 - 06/29/08 02:40 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Rick Veitch

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Registered: 11/23/98

Posts: 3531

Loc: Vermont, USA

Good catch! Thanks.

#201606 - 07/01/08 09:42 AM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Rick Veitch

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Registered: 11/23/98

Posts: 3531

Loc: Vermont, USA

I've posted the second SUPREME page that I donated for Diamond's charity auction. Kind of a bogus scan, but it's all I got since I shipped the page out already.

http://www.rickveitch.com/2008/06/30/second-supreme/

#201607 - 07/01/08 08:26 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

ChrisW

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Registered: 11/25/00

Posts: 10034

Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska USA

Quote:

Originally posted by Rick Veitch:

To be fair to Leifeld, the whole comics business was going up in chunks when Awesome finally collapsed.

Instead of paying industry standard royalties to creators, Checker chose to use the substantial profits of the two Supreme collections to build their imprint.

I spent a couple nights ago going through that blog. Gorgeous stuff. I should point out that Polyman and the Stormbirds (I think that was their name; the Blackhawks characters) did show up at the end of first storyline.

As far as being fair to Liefeld, I don't see it. If the choice comes to keeping Joe DiMaggio and Mickey Mantle happy, or paying for everybody up to and including the second-string infielder and quitting if I can't do that, as a hypothetical Yankees owner, I know who I'd put my money on. In the long run, it would even help with the second-string infielder.

But "shaft"ing the superstars gets Liefeld, well, about where he's been since Awesome folded. He won't do right for the only people who've given him acclaim, he won't do right for anybody else. Sure, the comics industry was falling apart, but if you have Moore writing and/or Veitch drawing, a sensible person would think 'ok, this is an important spot and I need to keep the people there happy. Let's not rip them off.'

#201608 - 07/01/08 11:29 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Erik Larsen

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Posts: 1795

Loc: Oakland, CA

The way it was explained to me Alan Moore was willing to edit and assist and possibly co-plot the "third season" of Supreme but he wanted Steve Moore (no relation) to write it.

That was what readers missed out on.

Steve moore wrote some of the ABC stuff over at Wildstorm. I don't recall it making a huge splash.

#201609 - 07/02/08 11:09 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Joe Lee

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Registered: 06/22/01

Posts: 12277

Quote:

Originally posted by Erik Larsen:

The way it was explained to me Alan Moore was willing to edit and assist and possibly co-plot the "third season" of Supreme but he wanted Steve Moore (no relation) to write it.

That was what readers missed out on.

Steve moore wrote some of the ABC stuff over at Wildstorm. I don't recall it making a huge splash.

Um what?

I think I must be totally not understanding what you are saying here.

Are you saying, a "third season" of Supreme wouldn't have made a "huge splash" so, readers didn't "miss out" on it?

I'm probably way off here. At the very least it could have been a third trade for Checker to publish and a third chance for Mr. Liefeld to honor or not honor his promise of royalties.

#201610 - 07/03/08 12:18 AM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

NEFARIOUS

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Registered: 12/09/01

Posts: 731

You mean Alan Moore wanted to do this to make it a full trade for Checker publishing? Or do you mean while he was still working on Supreme and for Awesome!Comics he was going to stop writing it and pass the duties to Steve Moore?

#201611 - 07/03/08 01:02 AM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Erik Larsen

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Registered: 03/25/02

Posts: 1795

Loc: Oakland, CA

Quote:

Originally posted by Joe Lee:

Quote:

Originally posted by Erik Larsen:

The way it was explained to me Alan Moore was willing to edit and assist and possibly co-plot the "third season" of Supreme but he wanted Steve Moore (no relation) to write it.

That was what readers missed out on.

Steve moore wrote some of the ABC stuff over at Wildstorm. I don't recall it making a huge splash.

Um what?

I think I must be totally not understanding what you are saying here.

Are you saying, a "third season" of Supreme wouldn't have made a "huge splash" so, readers didn't "miss out" on it?

I'm probably way off here. At the very least it could have been a third trade for Checker to publish and a third chance for Mr. Liefeld to honor or not honor his promise of royalties.

I'm saying you didn't miss any issues of Alan Moore's Supreme because Alan Moore wasn't going to write it.

And I don't know how well the Checker books sold. I haven't seen them around--I'm not sure they've stayed in print--I do know that they didn't look very good, scanned in from comics the way they were. It's not impossible that the books didn't make money. Often books are in the red when they're printed and they print enough copies to be able to keep the book available. If it came out and sat there because it didn't look so hot--it's conceivable that the inventory wasn't snapped up and that the book wasn't profitable. This is all speculation, of course.

Still--I think it's a bit presumptuous to assume that these books sold huge and Rob stiffed everybody when we don't know what the book sold, how many copies were printed, what Rob’s deal was and how much was paid to scan and clean up the pages and pay for printing. There are a lot of variables there that none of us a privy to. I know Rob is everybody's favorite punching toy but that strikes me as a trifle unfair under the circumstances.

#201612 - 07/03/08 10:34 AM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

IvanJim

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Registered: 06/16/01

Posts: 2865

Loc: Los Angeles

Quote:

Originally posted by Erik Larsen:

While there may be a presumption of Rob's "guilt" going on, I don't know that I'd consider it unfair.

A presumption of innocence should be granted in a vacuum or in circumstances where a pattern of ill will hasn't been shown. In Rob's case there seems to be a pattern of inappropriate and less than honest behavior when it comes to his following through on his contracts with others.

When someone has been shown to have a tendency to try and cheat other creators I'd think that it's fair to presume the possibility (maybe even a probability) of dishonest behavior when something looks hinky.

#201613 - 07/03/08 11:35 AM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Joe Lee

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Registered: 06/22/01

Posts: 12277

Quote:

Originally posted by Erik Larsen:

I think it's a bit presumptuous to assume that these books sold huge and Rob stiffed everybody when we don't know what the book sold...

Who said they "sold huge?" According to the posts above the people who created the works in question were promised compensation.

Shouldn't they be entitled to their share of whatever the books made, or at least an explanation of why there are no royalties?

#201614 - 07/03/08 12:10 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Erik Larsen

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Registered: 03/25/02

Posts: 1795

Loc: Oakland, CA

Quote:

Originally posted by Joe Lee:

According to the people above the people who created the works in question were promised compensation. Shouldn't they be entitled to their share of whatever the books made or an explanation of why there are no royalties?

They should.

From my experience with Rob--he generally overpaid people, made promises with expectations that sales would stay steady and he would get into trouble when they didn't. I can recall him luring creators away from Marvel, promising them $60,000 an issue, paying that--and finding that sales didn't make that possible over the long haul.

I ran into similar problems. Guys would agree to do a book and take YEARS to finish an issue and during that time sales dropped and by the time the book could be solicited--there was no way to make money or even break even. I ran into that problem on the second SuperPatriot miniseries. I agreed to pay Dave Johnson a princely sum and it took him forever to draw the book. By the time it came out I ended up losing tens of thousands of dollars.

Live and learn.

The reason Rob stopped publishing Supreme was because it wasn't making money. That, and Alan's proposal of having others write it meant that sales weren't likely to go up. It could very well be that Rob was in the hole on Supreme and that the Checker money helped pay off some of that debt. That doesn't excuse him from not telling people what's going on--but it's a possible scenario.

#201615 - 07/03/08 03:23 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Rick Veitch

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Registered: 11/23/98

Posts: 3531

Loc: Vermont, USA

Hi Erik,

The reason Rob stopped publishing SUPREME was his whole company went down the shitter. I believe the book was selling around 40,000 at the time and the creators were keeping to the schedule. Alan was so happy doing the work (even putting up with chronic late payment) that he created the ABC line around the Supreme creative team as soon as Awesome collapsed.

Where'd you hear that bit about handing Supreme off to others? I was involved with Alan's plotting of the third year arc and I never heard that from him. Like I said above: he loved SUPREME.

I'd love to know what Rob got from Checker for the tpb rights. Once I figured out a deal was going on, I was in touch with the Checker guys, hoping to finish the second book and make sure the creators got a fair piece. But they chose to go for the low quality and quick buck. They didn't even scan from the printed comics, but instead worked with some bad jpegs Rob gave them. Profits from the SUPREME collections essentially built Checker.

#201616 - 07/03/08 05:20 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Erik Larsen

Member

Registered: 03/25/02

Posts: 1795

Loc: Oakland, CA

Quote:

Originally posted by Rick Veitch:

Where'd you hear that bit about handing Supreme off to others?

From Rob--he did the accent and everything--it was pretty fun to listen to.

I'm not sure when that would have been exactly.

Quote:

Originally posted by Rick Veitch:

I was involved with Alan's plotting of the third year arc and I never heard that from him. Like I said above: he loved SUPREME.

Well, like you said--Rob's company did go away--it may have been by the time Alan was working on the ABC stuff. If that was the case it could have been one of those too-much-time-has-gone-by-and-I-no-longer-have-the-same-enthusiasm-for-the-project cases. Same thing happened in a sense--to 1963. I called Alan about that at one point after he and Steve Bissette had a falling out and its time had passed--Alan didn't want to have anything to do with it.

Quote:

Originally posted by Rick Veitch:

Does Checker still exist?

#201617 - 07/03/08 06:34 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Eel O'Brian

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Registered: 05/18/01

Posts: 3080

Loc: North Kackalackee

yep:

http://www.checkerbpg.com/

#201618 - 07/03/08 07:01 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Peter Urkowitz

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Registered: 08/28/00

Posts: 3231

Loc: Salem, MA, USA

Quote:

Originally posted by Erik Larsen:

Quote:

Originally posted by Rick Veitch:

Where'd you hear that bit about handing Supreme off to others?

From Rob--he did the accent and everything--it was pretty fun to listen to.

I'm sure Rob is fun to listen to, but you should know better than to believe anything he says.

In this case, it seems almost plausible. Alan Moore has often stated his admiration for Steve Moore. Alan has said that Steve was the person who taught him how to write comics decades ago. Alan relies on Steve to edit Alan's writing at times. Steve Moore did write some stories for ABC, and while they weren't any better than scripts by Alan Moore, they were certainly professional and entertaining. In any other context, they would have stood out more, but in comparison to Alan Moore's work, nobody is going to really shine.

So, did Rob Liefeld just conflate the ABC history with his own experience at Awesome comics, and simply imagine that Steve Moore might have eventually written Supreme, if it had continued publication? Or did Rob actually hear from Alan's own lips that he was proposing Steve Moore as his replacement on Supreme at some point in the future?

I think the former possibility is much more likely, but in neither case is Liefeld off the hook for not managing his own business affairs properly. He bears sole responsibility for that failure, no matter how hard he tries to smear Alan Moore or anyone else for it.

Fortunately, I don't feel that Supreme's cancellation was such a horrible loss, since we readers got the ABC line of comics out of it. Moore's run on Supreme is still a satisfying achievement as it stands now, not a disappointing stillbirth like "Big Numbers," for instance.

#201619 - 07/03/08 07:02 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

NEFARIOUS

Member

Registered: 12/09/01

Posts: 731

Was Alan Moore going to finish up with Supreme to write Glory full time or did he plan on writing both at the same time?

Top

#201620 - 07/03/08 07:08 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Jeff Albertson

Member

Registered: 02/07/05

Posts: 432

Quote:

Originally posted by NEFARIOUS:

They turned crappy, generic, imitation 90s comic characters into something special

Yeah, a good imitation 60s comic character.

Better (by far) than Liefeld's original Supreme, but still only an imitation of work done by others. I hope those who profess their love of this material also purchased the material that inspired it. Siegel, Binder and Hamilton along with Swan, Plastino and Mooney were the real deal. Not as self-aware as Supreme, but more genuine.

#201621 - 07/03/08 09:44 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

NEFARIOUS

Member

Registered: 12/09/01

Posts: 731

Yeah, the Supreme comics made me appreciate the original Silver Age Superman stories. I used to think they were corny but I'm a big fan of that era now.

But I still like Supreme better.

#201622 - 07/03/08 09:56 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Peter Urkowitz

Member

Registered: 08/28/00

Posts: 3231

Loc: Salem, MA, USA

Quote:

Originally posted by NEFARIOUS:

Was Alan Moore going to finish up with Supreme to write Glory full time or did he plan on writing both at the same time?

No, in the case of Glory I'm pretty sure that there were scripts or at least plots written years earlier, but Liefeld never got around to assigning and paying artists to work on them. Same thing with Youngblood.

On Supreme, whenever Liefeld or his clones were working on the art, you could see that they had trouble getting it done. For example, there's at least one issue where they tried to reuse some copied art from just one or two issues earlier, flipping it and stretching it out to fit in the panels. It was just sad to see.

Whereas when actual professionals were working on the art, there were no problems like that.

#201623 - 07/03/08 10:13 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Joe Lee

Member

Registered: 06/22/01

Posts: 12277

Quote:

From Wikipedia:

Moore moved on from the collapse of Awesome to almost-immediately start his own America's Best Comics imprint for Jim Lee's Wildstorm (later, and controversially from Moore's perspective, sold to DC), creating and writing its entire output in much the same way he been planning that of the Awesome Universe. Indeed, Liefeld has subsequently suggested that Moore's ABC work owed a significant amount to his work for Awesome, suggesting on Mark Millar's MillarWorld forum that:

"...much of the ABC line is made up of poorly masked Awesome characters and story outlines he prepared for us... I believe I could draw direct connections to many of the ABC characters and their origins coming from pages of Awesome work we commissioned from him. In short order, Tom Strong is Supreme mixed with his Prophet proposal. Promethea is Glory and the rest I honestly don't pay much attention to. Don't have the time or interest. Simply put, there is no ABC without Supreme and the Awesome re-launch.

Wasn't the whole Awesome line made up of "poorly masked" DC and Marvel characters? Did he really accuse someone of copying his copies?

#201624 - 07/04/08 12:31 AM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

ChrisW

Member

Registered: 11/25/00

Posts: 10034

Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska USA

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Urkowitz:

Disagree, not because I think "Supreme" was better than the ABC line, but the loss of the "Supreme" story was a horrible decision, and unless he was completely out of control of his own business, one Rob Liefeld is completely responsible for.

Granted, at least being under Jim Lee and DC Comics meant that ABC had a certain stability that Liefeld couldn't or wouldn't provide, but really, if things had worked and Moore had gone ahead with the ABC line for Liefeld, there's not much reason to think things would have been different. Maybe Liefeld would have stood up for the Cobweb story that attacked Scientology, or the "Legion of Extraordinary Gentlemen" Marvel douche ad, or the the graphic painting that couldn't be reproduced in "Promethea" (blanking on what its name was, in one of the latter issues) but there wouldn't be much difference. Ok, maybe Moore wouldn't have had time to write (fill in your least favorite ABC title here), but overall, things wouldn't have changed, and the main loss from that era was "Supreme" itself.

The question of Steve Moore is interesting because, as you point out, Moore has always credited him, and (on this side of the table) done his best to get him work on Alan Moore's properties. That seems incredibly foolish on Alan Moore's part to me, because comics fans aren't going to be so handily given to another writer, thanks to Alan Moore's own example of what a comics writer can do. Yet Steve Moore has written Hellblazer, Swamp Thing, Tom Strong, and more.

#201625 - 07/04/08 02:17 AM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

NEFARIOUS

Member

Registered: 12/09/01

Posts: 731

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Urkowitz:

Whereas when actual professionals were working on the art, there were no problems like that.

Actually I kind of grew to like the artists that did the issues. The anatomy is really off, among other things, but the dynamic, in-your-face style that was so prevalent in the 90s, isn't that bad when tempered with atleast a great story and some classic elements.

The only art that really made me not enjoy the story was the issues later on where Chris Sprouse had to take a break, and it looks like some crappy computer generated line art. It's the issue with Radar and all the puppies, and also the Pseudo-Kandor story. I hated that art. Also the last issue where Liefeld drew Supreme looking like Cable, and Diana's apartment, where the window made up a whole wall. Uggh! And I actually like his work, before it got all scratchy.

#201626 - 07/04/08 06:23 AM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Rick Veitch

Member

Registered: 11/23/98

Posts: 3531

Loc: Vermont, USA

Where'd you hear that bit about handing Supreme off to others?

From Rob--he did the accent and everything--it was pretty fun to listen to.

Well, there y'go.

You've worked with Rob long enough to know that he runs his business like Alice In Wonderland, right?

The 1963 situation is completely different from SUPREME and shouldn't be spun to defend Rob.

Do you still share an office with Eric Stephenson? He was editor of SUPREME and could probably enlighten us all to how events went down.

#201627 - 07/04/08 08:37 AM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Tuck

Member

Registered: 07/06/00

Posts: 1336

Quote:

Originally posted by Erik Larsen:

I know Rob is everybody's favorite punching toy but that strikes me as a trifle unfair under the circumstances.

For the record, I think John Byrne is everyone's favorite punching toy.

Not mine, mind you (I much prefer Wizard. Or Dandidio. Or Roger Clemens). But everyone else, sure, easy.

#201628 - 07/04/08 10:48 AM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Peter Urkowitz

Member

Registered: 08/28/00

Posts: 3231

Loc: Salem, MA, USA

Quote:

Originally posted by ChrisW:

Good points about the difficulties that the ABC books experienced at DC/Wildstorm. It is interesting to speculate about what could have been. But based on Liefeld's history, it seems more likely to me that the whole line would have just collapsed sooner or later, if it had ever come to pass at all. Remember that Moore didn't come up with the ABC proposal until after Awesome collapsed, even if he used some snippets from pre-existing proposals. Those pre-existing proposals had gone nowhere under Liefeld.

Also, the ABC line benefitted from being all new characters, and not having to squeeze itself into the constraints of the Awesome universe and its muscle-headed past. It's not clear to me that the overall achievements of the ABC line would have been possible under the Awesome banner. Maybe they would have been, but maybe not. Overall, I'm happy with what we got.

#201629 - 07/04/08 01:25 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Peter Urkowitz

Member

Registered: 08/28/00

Posts: 3231

Loc: Salem, MA, USA

To try to give Liefeld a little more credit, I think he may be right that working for Awesome was good for Alan Moore, at least at first. It did seem to usher in a more creative period, after a few years when he was mostly doing fair-to-middling work-for-hire for others (like on WILDCATS and SPAWN and so on).

But I still think that it was also important for Moore and his collaborators to break away from Liefeld eventually. Liefeld was only holding them back at that point.

So, thank you, Rob Liefeld! Thank you for being in the right place at the right time. And thank you for stepping aside when that time was over.

(Just don't ask for any more credit than that, Rob. And don't ask me to pre-order the sketchbook preview chromium edition of Youngblood Bloodsport #2. Ick!)

#201630 - 07/08/08 07:21 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Geddlee

Member

Registered: 05/09/01

Posts: 191

Loc: Solana Beach, CA USA

Quote:

Originally posted by Erik Larsen:

Quote:

Originally posted by Joe Lee:

They should.

Live and learn.

Dave Johnson asked me to post this response...

"GODDAMNIT ERIK!!! Airing my dirty laundry out there where everybody can see it!?! What gives you the right.... wait, I really don't have a leg to stand on here. I WAS slow, and you did pay what you promised, even after the sales figures started coming in. So wait, why am I mad again? Oh yeah, telling everybody I'm a slow artist. Ummm, well, I guess everybody already knows that about me. DAMNIT! I really don't have any reason to be mad at all.

Oh well, I guess I'll just crawl back in my little 'hate hole' and sulk."

#201631 - 07/09/08 07:41 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Peter Urkowitz

Member

Registered: 08/28/00

Posts: 3231

Loc: Salem, MA, USA

Dave Johnson is an awesome artist! It's too bad that all he ever does are covers nowadays. But I guess slowness will limit how many comics stories he is capable of.

Thanks, Geddlee, for posting Dave's comments. He showed an admirable sense of humor about himself, and an equally admirable lack of self-justifying rationalization. I hope he will find the time to draw more stories someday.

#201632 - 07/10/08 01:47 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Geddlee

Member

Registered: 05/09/01

Posts: 191

Loc: Solana Beach, CA USA

Me too, but I'll take the amazing covers and trading cards he does for now. The guy just doesn't do anything sub-par; everything is amazing.

#201633 - 07/11/08 08:18 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Stephen R Bissette

Member

Registered: 11/27/98

Posts: 939

Loc: wilmington, VT USA

Erik wrote:

"If that was the case it could have been one of those too-much-time-has-gone-by-and-I-no-longer-have-the-same-enthusiasm-for-the-project cases. Same thing happened in a sense--to 1963. I called Alan about that at one point after he and Steve Bissette had a falling out and its time had passed--Alan didn't want to have anything to do with it."

We didn't have a falling out -- I did an interview with TCJ, Alan cut me off forever. Period.

But that had nothing directly to do with 1963, and in fact occurred literally years after 1992-93, the period in which 1963 #1-6 were completed and published.

I've enormous respect for you and your work, Erik, but precious little for those you too often appear as an apologist for.

That said, this has been an interesting thread, for obvious reasons.

#201634 - 07/12/08 02:29 AM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

ChrisW

Member

Registered: 11/25/00

Posts: 10034

Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska USA

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Urkowitz:

Quote:

Originally posted by ChrisW:

I'm not disagreeing with anything you say. As comics fans, we were much happier with the ABC line for Wildstorm/DC, possibly happier than Moore was writing them.

I was trying to imply that an ABC line underwritten by Liefeld would have suffered much sooner than the same line by Wildstorm/DC did. I'm just saying that, with "Supreme", Liefeld had Alan Moore and Rick Veitch doing regular work, and how bad of a businessman (or comics fan) do you have to be to not see that as an area where your primary goal is to keep those creators working happily to keep making comics? From our more-enlightened perspective, it's not much different from keeping Curt Swan happy as he does "Superman" stories month in and month out. The difference is that Moore and Veitch had the awareness to know when they were being screwed, and the options to do something to change that.

Jeez, if I had the money, I'd commission the two of them to keep doing a regular series until they die. Even if it means I wind up in financial difficulties, that's just temporary, because every other work by Moore and/or Veitch winds up being profitable for the publisher. It's just that simple. Unfortunately, Liefeld is even more simple.

#201635 - 07/12/08 11:57 AM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Carlton Donaghe

Member

Registered: 11/23/98

Posts: 1619

Loc: the American Desert

Quote:

Originally posted by Stephen R Bissette:

We [Bissette & Moore] didn't have a falling out -- I did an interview with TCJ, Alan cut me off forever. Period.

You know, Mr. Bissette, I read that TCJ interview and could not find anything in there that looked like you were criticizing Mr. Moore, insulting him, or anything else. The guy might write some good stories every once and awhile, but he's prickly beyond belief.

#201636 - 07/13/08 08:21 AM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Stephen R Bissette

Member

Registered: 11/27/98

Posts: 939

Loc: wilmington, VT USA

Thanks, Carlton, but it was what it was, and is what it is.

I'm with ChrisW on this one -- and, on a related topic, be sure to check out the chapters on Marvelman/Miracleman and Medieval Spawn & Angela in the upcoming PRINCE OF STORIES: THE MANY WORLDS OF NEIL GAIMAN (November from St. Martin's Press) for the most comprehensive and current coverage I could muster on both situations.

#201637 - 07/13/08 04:36 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Lawson

Member

Registered: 11/11/02

Posts: 11978

Loc: Lexington, Ky.

Quote:

Originally posted by Stephen R Bissette:

We didn't have a falling out -- I did an interview with TCJ, Alan cut me off forever. Period.

Jeez, I hate to hear that, Stephen. You guys did some terrific work together. Alan Moore is a great writer, but I wish he wasn't so quick to damn everyone.

This thread has prompted me to finally read SUPREME. Fortunately, my public library has a copy of the first hardcover collection (THE STORY OF THE YEAR). So far, it's a lot of fun, a spoof of comics mythology but also a tribute to the Superman comics of the Golden and Silver ages.

My only gripe thus far is the 1990s art in that ridiculously overdone, steroid muscle-bound, crosshatched, Image style. Was that Joe Bennett in the first issues? However, the flashback art by Rick Veitch & Co. looks nice. And I see one of my favorites, Chris Sprouse, contributed to the main storyline a little further along.

#201638 - 10/03/08 08:48 AM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Stephen R Bissette

Member

Registered: 11/27/98

Posts: 939

Loc: wilmington, VT USA

Reminder:

THE PRINCE OF STORIES ships on October 28th -- and, incredibly, the info excavated and incorporated into the book that was fresh in November 2007-March 2008 remains so, particularly the MARVELMAN/MIRACLEMAN chapter I labored diligently over.

Be sure to pick up the book -- I think you'll find it of interest.

#201639 - 10/12/08 01:03 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Malvin

Junior member

Registered: 02/08/05

Posts: 2

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Urkowitz:

Whereas when actual professionals were working on the art, there were no problems like that.

I'm a big Supreme fan and I know what sections you are talking about. Was it from the Jim Starlin issue? I was able to talk to Jim Starlin at SDCC and he mentioned that for his issue, the scripts from Alan Moore were late and the last 2 pages arrived just before they had to publish. He just couldn't draw it in time and they had to use artwork from previous issues to make the last 2 pages.

Malvin

PS If you are Suprem fans, I have a bunch of Supreme original artwork if you click on the comicartfans link on my sig. Feel free to look, enjoy and give comments!

#201640 - 10/12/08 10:45 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Peter Urkowitz

Member

Registered: 08/28/00

Posts: 3231

Loc: Salem, MA, USA

#201641 - 10/13/08 01:17 AM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Malvin

Junior member

Registered: 02/08/05

Posts: 2

Wow, talk about thorough research - good job. All I can say is, for the Jim Starlin issue, he said he got the scripts late and had to cut and paste Chris Sprouse art to make it work. I don't think Jim had any reason to "misremember".

#201642 - 10/13/08 01:30 AM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

NEFARIOUS

Member

Registered: 12/09/01

Posts: 731

I don't know about all the Liefeld clones, but Joe Bennet was my favorite artist for the modern day sequences. The rest drew either drew Supreme too old looking (he's supposed to look like a relatively young guy who just happens to have white hair) or women with odd proportions.

That's too bad about the lateness. I had no idea it was that bad. No wonder sales weren't great.

And I can't believe I missed out on this series in junior high.

#201643 - 10/13/08 11:48 AM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Malvin

Junior member

Registered: 02/08/05

Posts: 2

Wow! I like Joe Bennett's version of Supreme too. Of all the artists that worked on Alan Moore's supreme, I like Joe Bennett and Chris Sprouse the most (then there is also Ian Churchill... but his issue didn't really show Supreme!). I have Joe Bennett's first Supreme Covers and he actually has notes on the side telling Norm Rapmund that he changed his style once Alan Moore came on board. The scan is hard to read though:

http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=19923&GSub=54719

Yeah, I have to thank Peter, I definitely did not know the comics were published so irregularly either. It didn't feel that way when I was reading it as it came out.

#201644 - 10/13/08 12:26 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Shoegaze99

Member

Registered: 06/15/02

Posts: 5325

Loc: Not Applicable, USA

I remember when I first heard that Alan Moore had done Supreme. I was out of comics at the time, so it completely passed me by at the time of release. After I started reading comics again a friend asked if I had gotten that first Supreme trade again, knowing I was a Moore fan.

"Why would I?" I asked.

"Well, you like Alan Moore, don't you? I figured you'd get it."

"Of course I like Alan Moore? What does that have to do with Supreme?"

"He had a long run on Supreme."

"Are we talking about the saem Supreme? That shitty Liefeld Superman knockoff?"

"Yes, that Supreme."

"Alan Moore did THAT Supreme?"

"Yeah."

"Like hell he did!"

Of course, much to my delight it turned out to be awesome.

#201645 - 10/13/08 02:55 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Sparvid

Member

Registered: 10/09/01

Posts: 465

Loc: Sweden

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Urkowitz:

Whoa, that was even weirder than I had thought! Multiple publishers, multiple issues in single months, frequent delays, and what was the point of that #52a and #52b business?

IIRC, Moore wanted to do a 80-page Giant issue, but it was split into two instead.

#201646 - 10/13/08 04:43 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Peter Urkowitz

Member

Registered: 08/28/00

Posts: 3231

Loc: Salem, MA, USA

Quote:

Originally posted by Sparvid:

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Urkowitz:

Whoa, that was even weirder than I had thought! Multiple publishers, multiple issues in single months, frequent delays, and what was the point of that #52a and #52b business?

IIRC, Moore wanted to do a 80-page Giant issue, but it was split into two instead.

Yeah, but they could have called them #52 and #53 just as easily. I was ordering my comics mail-order at the time, and my impression then was that 52a and 52b just meant variant covers. So I only ordered #52a. Then when #53 eventually arrived, I found out that I had missed the ending of the big Darius Dax battle in #52b, and it was sold out everywhere I looked. I didn't get to read the end of that story for years, until the Checker TPB came out.

#201647 - 10/13/08 10:16 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Peter Urkowitz

Member

Registered: 08/28/00

Posts: 3231

Loc: Salem, MA, USA

I found another interesting bit of data: Tom Strong #1 was published by ABC in June 1999, the same month that Supreme: The Return #2 was published by Awesome!

The ABC books weren't even conceived until after Alan Moore and his co-creators learned that Awesome Entertainment was going out of business, and they stopped work on Supreme. So the six issues of Supreme: the Return were probably all completed during 1998, and then Liefeld sat on them for over a year while he cobbled together the printing fees for one last stab at publishing.

So the story of Alan Moore being responsible for the cut-and-paste final pages of StR #2 on account of late scripting, that story is false. I'm NOT saying that Starlin is lying; more likely he was lied to by his editor and publisher at Awesome, and he was just passing along what he was told. Why they couldn't find somebody to actually draw those pages during the 15-month hiatus, that remains a mystery. But my best guess is that they couldn't afford to pay anyone to do it.

#201648 - 10/14/08 12:50 AM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

NEFARIOUS

Member

Registered: 12/09/01

Posts: 731

Malvin, thanks for posting the original art. I couldn't quite make out all of the note but still cool.

Peter Urkowitz, that sucks about the Supreme finale. Liefeld does weird stuff like that. In judgment day 1-3 it's numbered ALPHA, OMEGA, and 3.

#201649 - 10/14/08 03:26 AM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Malvin

Junior member

Registered: 02/08/05

Posts: 2

Peter - I don't know what else to say, just repeated what was said to me.

Nefarious - thanks! Here is the text:

Dear Norm,

I changed my style on this issue and I would really appreciate if if you could do an inking style that similar to Kevin Nowlan

HA I forgot what that said, thanks for making me read it. The Kevin Nowlan comment was funny! =)

In case you didn't surf around that site, I have tons of other Alan Moore Supreme Original art:

Published Covers and Pinups:

http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryRoom.asp?GSub=54719

Published Interiors:

http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryRoom.asp?GSub=2408

Sketches and non Alan Moore Supreme pages:

http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryRoom.asp?GSub=39212

#201650 - 10/14/08 04:43 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Peter Urkowitz

Member

Registered: 08/28/00

Posts: 3231

Loc: Salem, MA, USA

Quote:

Originally posted by Malvin:

Peter - I don't know what else to say, just repeated what was said to me.

And thank you for doing so, Malvin! It was an interesting peek at the inner workings of Awesome, even if seen through a foggy lens from a distance, as it were.

This thread started with some questions about the accuracy of stuff Rob Liefeld had said about Supreme and Alan Moore (I think it was in this interview originally). So that's what we've been trying to do here, take public statements and try to figure out the truth behind them, not necessarily taking them at face value. The more information the better, from whatever source, for a project like that.

And thanks also for the links to the original art, and for transcribing that note from Joe Bennett, too. Good stuff there!

#201651 - 10/15/08 12:29 AM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Joe Lee

Member

Registered: 06/22/01

Posts: 12277

Lying in the Gutters this week had a thing about new "Top Ten" and "Tom Strong" series from Wildstorm.

#201652 - 10/16/08 05:21 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

NEFARIOUS

Member

Registered: 12/09/01

Posts: 731

I thought Alan Moore left Wildstorm/DC? How can they publish his characters?

#201653 - 10/16/08 06:09 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

Peter Urkowitz

Member

Registered: 08/28/00

Posts: 3231

Loc: Salem, MA, USA

In order to get a better page rate upfront, Moore and his collaborators sold the rights to the ABC characters to Wildstorm when they first set up the deal. Would they have done that if they knew that Jim Lee would turn around and sell Wildstorm to DC? Maybe not, but they were persuaded to stay on once DC was the new owner, provided that DC didn't make itself known too obviously.

Various "firewalls" were put in place, to maintain the fiction that ABC was independent of DC. The DC Bullet would not appear on the covers of the books. Checks paid to the creators would not come from DC accounts. And so on. The system worked fairly well for a few years, actually longer than the initial contracts, which were only for a year or two. But Moore was eventually bothered by too much interference from DC, leading him to pull up sticks again and head for greener pastures. Fortunately, the various ABC series all reached natural ending points by that time.

Presumably Moore and the other creators still get royalty payments for the new series, but they don't have any veto power over whether they get made or not. I'm glad to see that Zander Cannon and Gene Ha are doing the new Top 10 series, though. From the first issue, it looks pretty good, even without Moore.

One exception to the ABC deal was "The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen," which Alan Moore and Kevin O'Neill kept the rights to, leaving them free to take it to Top Shelf for the next volume.

#201654 - 10/16/08 11:18 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme?

NEFARIOUS

Member

Registered: 12/09/01

Posts: 731

That's good that the current Top 10 team is doing something but damn, it's like Moore hardly owns anything that he's done. Tom Strong, Promethea, V for Vendetta, Jack B. Quick, Grey Shirt...wow.

#527531 - 10/24/08 01:34 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme? [Re: NEFARIOUS]

Stephen R Bissette

Member

Registered: 11/27/98

Posts: 939

Loc: wilmington, VT USA

Those were Alan's choices, post-1987, Nefarious. So it goes.

#527737 - 10/27/08 03:18 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme? [Re: Stephen R Bissette]

stanleylieber

Member

Registered: 02/13/07

Posts: 963

http://cerebusfangirl.com/artists/nftp/95.php

Quote:

Aloha (again).

The very odd thing about Howard Chaykin, Frank Miller, Marv Wolfman and Alan Moore announcing their intention to create no new work for DC because of the handling of the recent ratings issue is that (lam sure) no one at DC has the slightest idea what they have done wrong; why their post-Crisis golden age is so suddenly and so seriously crippled. It is hard for fans to understand just how inept this company is since the fans have demonstrated such a voracious need for an alternative teat now that they feel can’t, in good conscience, rub their cheeks against Marvel’s chair leg any more (to mix a metaphor).

I was telling one of the DC execs (you know he’s an exec because his name is on everything) at Matt Wagner’s End of Mage party that DC was blowing it. (Please bear in mind that the individual in question is a sweet guy and I consider him a friend). I told him that wherever Frank Miller and Alan Moore are at the moment, that is where Comic Books are; as a medium, but, more important to DC, as an industry. At this point, I continued, DC is still treating their creative people as secondary manufacturers. They are not consulted on print runs or anything of importance to the business side. It was Frank Miller and Alan Moore who gave DC their present credibility and they were still considered little better than field hands. Use ‘em up and when they lose it throw ‘em away. Plenty more where that came from.

By this time I was ranting. But we’ve got you, I said. By this time next year Frank and Alan will be publishing their own work. I am sure of it. All that is needed is one public fart-at-the-table and the jig is up. DC is going to learn that not everyone in this business can be bought for nickels and dimes and kept out in the fields at back-(and mind-)breaking labour for decade upon decade. DC hasn’t changed a bit in fifty years. Everyone there somehow believes that they are the ones creating all those comics on the wall. And why not? By law they are. By law the tenth floor of 666 Fifth Avenue created Superman.

At this point my friend’s face had become a bit grim to say the least. I reassured him that everyone up at DC is a nice person (which I sincerely think they are) and he brightened visibly. Although I was still ranting this threw me off-balance. I realized I was never going to explain in such a way that he could understand exactly how thoroughly DC misunderstands creative people. They talk about negotiating but what they mean is “This is what we’re offering you. You can have a lot of it now and less later or you can have less of it now and more later.” That is hardly negotiation. Their way of encouraging good work is to take top rank talent out for expensive dinners. They really haven’t the faintest idea why the best lobster dinner at the best restaurant in the best of cities is not a reward to a creative individual - that it merely reinforces the Jester in the Court of the Crimson Queen syndrome. You know talking to Herself that she considers you countless rungs down the ladder from the rarefied atmosphere in which she functions, socially or otherwise.

What she (and the entire DC hierarchy) has failed to understand is that this is no longer a corporate but a creative world. DC needs Alan Moore and Frank Miller a lot more than either gentlemen needs a dinosaur pimple on Warner Communications’ butt.

And so, in the Court of the Crimson Queen comes the rifle crack of the basest kind of flatulence. A ratings system for comics --- a way of forestalling any hypothetical attack by the mindless on the gutless.

Not being courtiers, hangers-on, attendants, underlings, field hands, footmen, servants or slaves Frank, Alan, Mary and Howard exchange glances and hurriedly leave the room.

And none can tell the Crimson Queen (who is now quite crimson indeed) why it is that all those lovely creative fellows have left.

Nor when they might return.

She chews her food carefully and ponders.

To no avail.

#527894 - 10/28/08 04:51 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme? [Re: stanleylieber]

Peter Urkowitz

Member

Registered: 08/28/00

Posts: 3231

Loc: Salem, MA, USA

Thanks for digging that up, Stanley. Interesting to read it again after all these years. Sim did make some good points for the time he was writing, but he turned out to be a poor prophet.

#528971 - 11/14/08 01:26 AM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme? [Re: Peter Urkowitz]

Malvin

Junior member

Registered: 02/08/05

Posts: 2

I actually wanted to share this when I replying to this thread, but it wasn't in my hands yet. But it finally arrived! I just received a Chris Sprouse Supreme and Radar Commission!

Chris Sprouse to me was one of THE definitive Supreme artist during Alan Moore's run so I'm glad to get this.

#529048 - 11/15/08 03:06 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme? [Re: Malvin]

Peter Urkowitz

Member

Registered: 08/28/00

Posts: 3231

Loc: Salem, MA, USA

Thanks, Malvin! That Chris Sprouse commission is great!

#529185 - 11/17/08 01:13 PM

Re: Why Alan Moore stopped writing Supreme? [Re: Peter Urkowitz]

Death Ray

Junior member

Registered: 01/10/05

Posts: 17

Dammit. we know why! It was so Alan would have the time to rework Armageddon Now! as a Thelemite Goddess worship parable, and then give Liefeld all the credit when the movie comes out.

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